Index  •  FAQ  •  Search  

It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:24 am

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
 June 1st Ammo Tax...... 
Author Message
 Post subject: June 1st Ammo Tax......
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:37 pm 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:08 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Savage
Anyone heard about this? I have a close friend who is in regular contact with employees at Federal (you know, the folks who make lots and lots of ammo right here in Minnesota) and he has told me repeatedly that they have warehouses full of ammunition that they are just stockpiling, waiting for some new tax to go into effect on June 1st or some such. I have tried telling him that there is no such animal, but he "knows what he knows" and all that.

Anyone here care to address this? This board seems to be chock full of folks who "have their ear to the ground" on issues like this. Does he know something I don't, or is he wearing a tin-foil hat?

This isnt a question of being the one who is right. He is genuinely concerned about this, and I want to know if there is any truth in this.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 10:03 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
There's been absolutely nothing passed on this on either a state or federal level that I've seen. In fact, the only mention I'm seeing is on the tinfoil hat forums.

Nothing like more rumors driving the ammo shortage. :roll:

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 10:21 pm 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:08 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Savage
Thats what I have been trying to tell him. But, some folks, just dont listen.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 10:37 pm 
Senior Member

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:43 am
Posts: 371
Location: Anoka, MN
Put it to him this way:

Why would the companies (Federal, etc) want to horde ammo for a new tax to come in (that they do NOT get a share of) but that makes consumption (purchase) of their product go down due to higher prices? (Well, the cost of ammo went up 5% from the new tax - I can't get X boxes of Y with my $100, I can now only get X-1 boxes)


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 10:46 pm 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:05 pm
Posts: 199
Location: Twin Cities, MN
QuiChenKane wrote:
Thats what I have been trying to tell him. But, some folks, just dont listen.


Still, he isn't lying. I don't know him. But, well, he isn't. I've been curious as to the stockpiling too. It is warehouses and warehouses. El Dorado.

Come to find out, they anticipate even greater, more ridiculous price hikes, or rather opportunities for such, by mid to late summer. This is how De Beers sells diamonds.

So, nothing as sinister as an ammo tax, but still kind of grim. :(

_________________
"My name is Shosanna Dreyfus. This is the face of Jewish vengeance."


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:48 pm 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:59 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Minnetonka
Sietch wrote:
Still, he isn't lying. I don't know him. But, well, he isn't. I've been curious as to the stockpiling too. It is warehouses and warehouses. El Dorado.

Come to find out, they anticipate even greater, more ridiculous price hikes, or rather opportunities for such, by mid to late summer.


Sorry, but this doesn't pass the smell test. Prices are determined by the market - so unless there's going to be either a) some dramatic increase in demand, or b) some dramatic decrease in supply, it makes -zero- sense to manufacture a product and store it in a warehouse.

Now, the US Govt could be buying a large quantity for "delivery in june", and that could require warehouses, but that's not the same thing at all.

_________________
"Please stop with the clichés! If your freedom means so little to you that you are not willing to fight for it politically, then do not insult my intelligence by claiming to be willing to lay down your life for it." - John Pierce


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:44 am 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:05 pm
Posts: 199
Location: Twin Cities, MN
chuckw wrote:
it makes -zero- sense to manufacture a product and store it in a warehouse.


I'll give you an example. Oil companies store away thousands and
thousands of barrels worth of oil that they could be selling, anticipating a rise in price; i.e. an opportunity/excuse to raise their selling price. This happens all the time. Opportunities: before a major hurricane has its way with the refineries in the gulf, or the onset of a foreseeable military conflict (Israel-Iran, India-Pakistan).

If you traded in commodities, you'd make your living buying thousands of barrels of crude that you have absolutely no practical use for, because you know that in two weeks a storm is going to annihilate the southeastern states, or the Strait of Hormuz is going to deteriorate amid some clash between nations.

They're not stockpiling because they control the price. The market is the market. They're stockpiling because they can see the future.

_________________
"My name is Shosanna Dreyfus. This is the face of Jewish vengeance."


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:56 am 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:08 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Savage
Also known as speculation, or 'naked greed'. Perhaps the present administration will feel the need to step in and nationalize the ammo industry........to protect us of course.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:34 am 
Longtime Regular

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:54 am
Posts: 2444
Location: West Central MN
Unless there are very many competitors making and distributing ammo to dealers, prices will not be fully set by the market.

There are only a few large ammo manufacturers, and probably fewer ammo distributors and importers. Not every competitor even makes every caliber everyday, and these companies will ignore smaller customers when they have huge military orders.

Then too, the government will not bother about an ammo shortage, or price gouging, or market manipulation on ammo; it's not like a shortage of say, baby formula or flue vaccine.

(As we've seen, they don't even worry about a failure of competition in the oil market when there is not even an appearance of a shortage.)

Hopefully the profits the gun industry currently enjoys will result in reinvestment in. and rejuvenation of, the industry, instead of further consolidation.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:12 am 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:59 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Minnetonka
Sietch wrote:
I'll give you an example. Oil companies store away thousands and thousands of barrels worth of oil that they could be selling, anticipating a rise in price; i.e. an opportunity/excuse to raise their selling price.


You're confusing excess manufacturing capacity with stockpiling. Or can you point gas stations that were "out of gas" in the way that gun shops have empty shelves?

It does make sense to produce at a lower cost (without paying overtime) and store for future sale when you have known seasonal variability. But everything I've heard is that ammo manufacture is running full out - and the market is consuming everything that they can produce.

We're also ignoring risk - what happens to them if they've got 6 months normal sales volume sitting in warehouses and demand falls dramatically? (What if the tax turns out to be real and is 500%?)

_________________
"Please stop with the clichés! If your freedom means so little to you that you are not willing to fight for it politically, then do not insult my intelligence by claiming to be willing to lay down your life for it." - John Pierce


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:15 am 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:49 pm
Posts: 105
I hate when people get sucked into spreading rumors.
WORD.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:32 am 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:59 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Minnetonka
Sietch wrote:
If you traded in commodities, you'd make your living buying thousands of barrels of crude that you have absolutely no practical use for, because you know that in two weeks a storm is going to annihilate the southeastern states, or the Strait of Hormuz is going to deteriorate amid some clash between nations.


That's not an accurate comparison - for retail sales, ammunition is a recreational product. If it gets too expensive, people will substitute products (movies, new playstation, martial arts - whatever). Worse, if it's unavailable for any extended period of time (the store shelves are empty for too long) then people will permanently alter their behavior, and the ammunition companies will be stuck with a permanent drop in demand.

Besides - the commodities brokers already have to be playing with lead, copper and brass futures.

Sietch wrote:
They're not stockpiling because they control the price. The market is the market. They're stockpiling because they can see the future.


You're not serious? What future? The only reason to stockpile is if they expect both demand and price to go up, and I have yet to hear a suggestion of why that might happen.

_________________
"Please stop with the clichés! If your freedom means so little to you that you are not willing to fight for it politically, then do not insult my intelligence by claiming to be willing to lay down your life for it." - John Pierce


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:33 am 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:28 am
Posts: 88
I just wonder if the OP can explain to me how the increased TAX puts any money in the pockets of the manufacturer.
It doesn't.
In any way, shape, or form.

There "may" be a reason for product sitting in a warehouse, but in anticipation of a (possible) tax that would decimate their market? Nope, not gonna buy it.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:47 am 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:59 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Minnetonka
mnmike59 wrote:
I hate when people get sucked into spreading rumors.


I know - it seems so much easier for people to believe in ominous intent and conspiracies than in simple mis-information and mis-interpretation of the facts at hand.

Seriously, what facts do we have here? There's a visible shortage, and prices have been rising because of the shortage. Because of the rising prices, some consumers are stockpiling, expecting that they'll be saving money in the long run. I've heard from several reliable sources that the ammunition manufacturers are running full out, and the military is buying the bulk of their production.

And, we have an unsubstantiated rumor that some company is stockpiling their manufactured ammo instead of selling it to the market now.

The only way this makes sense is if we're going to be in a war with N. Korea or Iran by the end of the summer. And I really doubt that the ammo manufacturers are the only ones who would know that.

_________________
"Please stop with the clichés! If your freedom means so little to you that you are not willing to fight for it politically, then do not insult my intelligence by claiming to be willing to lay down your life for it." - John Pierce


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:25 am 
Journeyman Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:08 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Savage
Okay, folks, calm the f*** down. I posted because I wanted to know 2 things.

1: If there was a chance he does know something that I dont.

2: If he is wrong about this, how do I convince him its B.S.

I am not "spreading a rumor".
I am not contending that a tax would put money in the manufacturers pocket.


Unbunch the panties, please. There is no need to get worked up over this. In fact, that is what the post was about in the first place. That is, not being worked up over stuff that doesnt deserve getting worked up over.

mrokern, Q_Continuum: Thanks, thats what I need to know.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours


 Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


 
Index  |  FAQ  |  Search

phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group