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 Ron Paul and 9/11 truthers (split: Palin running for Prez...) 
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 Post subject: Re: Palin running for Prez, or........
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:17 am 
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Selurcspi wrote:
It would actually be quite easy to place significant charges throughout a building like the towers and no one would notice. Simply place them in computer cases without a keyboard and plug everything in, perhaps even use a battery to light the LEDs. You could use the network cables to control detonation if you had access to the wiring closets. It could be done, on an incremental basis without anyone paying attention. 4 or 5 PC cases could easily hold a hundred lbs of C4 and the number of offices in the building would disguise the appearance of dozens of them.


Controlled demolition guts a building. The support structure basically gets wrapped in explosives to destroy key points. Building that size would take lots of people months to prep.

Hey, it's possible. 500 men sneak in at night, dressed as cleaning people so all of the graveyard shift employees wouldn't notice, tear down the sheetrock, place hundreds of pounds of explosives, run the wires through the duct work, patch the sheetrock, repaint and clean up the mess at night, every night, for over a year.

Nobody would notice. And, after the fact, the thousands of total people involved would all keep a secret, living with the guilt, secret notoriety, and the knowledge that the Enquirer would give them millions of dollars for the story. All to....what, exactly?

Sorry, Selurcspi, I know this isn't your theory. KISS makes more sense than any of the troofer crap.

Pakrat wrote:
They just get called idiots

My other accusations include the facts that the sky is blue and grass is green.

Quote:
and the things that make one go 'hmmm' get called BS.

There's is nothing in a 9/11 troofer conspiracy delusion to make a rational person go 'hmmm'. It is BS.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul and 9/11 truthers (split: Palin running for Prez...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:20 am 
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My apologies. I have uncovered proof that jet fuel couldn't possible have taken down the towers. It was all Bush, working in his underwear between 3 and 4 am for 2 weeks before 9/11. Using the magic of the illuminati and herds of trained sheep(not "sheeple", actual wool-bearing farm-dates), he shrunk himself and his stooges(baah!) small enough to navigate inside the walls and lay the demolition materials without anyone noticing.

This had to be the case, because this guy couldn't melt his rabbit cage.

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul and 9/11 truthers (split: Palin running for Prez...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:17 pm 
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9/11 truthers are simply ignorant of physics and modern construction. It is like the trick of the in column popcan. Take a pair of empty popcans. Set them on a smooth surface and bridge them with a board. Now stand on the board. It will support you. Now flick either pop can with a finger and you get instant wall failure.

In a modern building as long as everything is straight and square, the loads are managed and transfered properly. Disrupt this, and it all comes down like a house of cards.

In both towers, once the first failure happened, it was like a several million ton jackhammer hitting every lower floor. No build has the strength to survive that type of blow.

Any other veiwpoint is pure ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Palin running for Prez, or........
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:53 pm 
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drkarrow wrote:
Huh? when did Paul become a truther?

Last I heard he wasn't.

I would like to know if he has said otherwise.


http://hotair.com/archives/2009/07/18/f ... a-truther/

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 Post subject: Re: Palin running for Prez, or........
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:56 pm 
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Pakrat wrote:
kecker wrote:
Pakrat wrote:
kecker wrote:
... 9/11 Truther ... completely incapable of being rational and logical about an incident.

You forgot the rational arguement that he "hates america." You know, since all '9/11 truthers' must hate america. I'm guessing we thank Karl Rove for coming up with that logical response to "reinvestigate 9/11"?

I don't buy that argument

You can't choose whether or not to purchase that logical and rational argument, when that's the backbone of discrediting '9/11 truthers'.
I mean there aren't really any other arguments...


Don't put words in my mouth. I don't buy that 9/11 truthers hate America or anythign like that. They're just incredibly misguided....sorta like the moon landing folk.

There is an incredible amount of scientific data and explanations for every claim truthers have made. To pretend otherwise requires a willful effort to want to believe it wasn't as simple as flying planes into a building

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 Post subject: Re: Palin running for Prez, or........
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:58 pm 
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kecker wrote:
drkarrow wrote:
Huh? when did Paul become a truther?

Last I heard he wasn't.

I would like to know if he has said otherwise.


http://hotair.com/archives/2009/07/18/f ... a-truther/

Hardly :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul and 9/11 truthers (split: Palin running for Prez...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:02 pm 
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Blued Steel wrote:
In both towers, once the first failure happened, it was like a several million ton jackhammer hitting every lower floor. No build has the strength to survive that type of blow.


Exactly and that speaks right to the heart of an point that's already been made here. That since the towers fell so fast it had to be a controlled demolition. Well once the fire weaked the supports and the failure happen, you have the upper third of the building following impacting lower floors with a force hundreds of times more than they were designed to support. At that point any support structure still there would provide negligible resistance to the falling building above.

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 Post subject: Re: Palin running for Prez, or........
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Andrew Rothman wrote:
Th eproblem with conspiracy theories, in general, is the notion that large numbers of people can coordinate in perfect secrecy and maintain that secrecy for life. People just don't work that way.

Not maintain secrecy. Maintaining isn't required. Who knows what the "idiots" really know, it's not all 'theory,' until they get lumped into the conspiracy theory bucket.

What's the quickest and easiest way to stop the truth from getting out? Well, kill them... But after that, when you don't want people to say "he must have been right, he got killed"? Discreditation.

princewally wrote:
Pakrat wrote:
They just get called idiots

My other accusations include the facts that the sky is blue and grass is green.

Further proving my point.

Oh, and we'll have to add "troofer" to that list.

Quote:
Quote:
and the things that make one go 'hmmm' get called BS.

There's is nothing in a 9/11 troofer conspiracy delusion to make a rational person go 'hmmm'. It is BS.

- Where did Flight 93 go?
Image

- I will concede that the sprinklers failed in the buildings. Still doesn't explain why Building 7 fell the same precise way that the towers did. The towers were designed to pancake. In my limited knowledge on building design, no other building built the way the towers were have caught on fire. But, plenty of buildings built like #7 have. Why is this building disappearing act limited to only that day?

- BBC: Hijack 'suspects' alive and well

hmm?


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 Post subject: Re: Palin running for Prez, or........
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Pakrat wrote:
- Where did Flight 93 go?

Planes have to fly. Lifting weight off the ground is hard. Hence, planes are made as light as humanly possible. They are made just barely strong enough to stand up to the forces they were intended to stand up to, plus a modest safety margin, and not a jot more.

Fill a shotgun shell with aluminum foil and shoot a steel plate. Then go looking for the aluminum foil. Good luck finding it.

Quote:
Still doesn't explain why Building 7 fell the same precise way that the towers did. The towers were designed to pancake. In my limited knowledge on building design, no other building built the way the towers were have caught on fire. But, plenty of buildings built like #7 have.

If Building 7 was rigged to collapse the same way the towers were, why did it collapse five hours later? And, for that matter, why didn't the other four buildings collapse?

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 Post subject: Re: Palin running for Prez, or........
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Pakrat wrote:
Andrew Rothman wrote:
Th eproblem with conspiracy theories, in general, is the notion that large numbers of people can coordinate in perfect secrecy and maintain that secrecy for life. People just don't work that way.

Not maintain secrecy. Maintaining isn't required. Who knows what the "idiots" really know, it's not all 'theory,' until they get lumped into the conspiracy theory bucket.

WTF are you smoking....Do you have any idea what size of a project it would take to pull something like this off, and how many people would be involved supplying the people involved, and the people they live with, who ask "How was your day"? Have you ever worked on a large project?

What's the quickest and easiest way to stop the truth from getting out? Well, kill them... But after that, when you don't want people to say "he must have been right, he got killed"? Discreditation.

SO this several hundred or so people involved just got "forgotten", Who the hell doesn't remember people, People just don't disappear in large numbers without someone noticing, not to mention, families, (Say Dear, didn't we have two son's home for Christmas last year?") Friends, coworkers, etc.?

princewally wrote:
Pakrat wrote:
They just get called idiots

My other accusations include the facts that the sky is blue and grass is green.

Further proving my point.

Oh, and we'll have to add "troofer" to that list.

Quote:
Quote:
and the things that make one go 'hmmm' get called BS.

There's is nothing in a 9/11 troofer conspiracy delusion to make a rational person go 'hmmm'. It is BS.

- Where did Flight 93 go?
Image

"Fight 93 dug a great big smoking hole in the ground, exactly the way Large AC do when they hit in an almost straight nose down attitude...Look at the hole in the everglades that Valu jet made, exactly the same. Enough personal bits and AC parts were recovered from the hole to prove it was what it was, unless you add in another few hundred inspectors, construction workers, etc who are just "disappeared" to make it more convenient for you...."

- I will concede that the sprinklers failed in the buildings. Still doesn't explain why Building 7 fell the same precise way that the towers did. The towers were designed to pancake. In my limited knowledge on building design, no other building built the way the towers were have caught on fire. But, plenty of buildings built like #7 have. Why is this building disappearing act limited to only that day?


These buildings fell because the people who attacked them were pretty damn smart people, you have to be to set up this type of operation, not to mention, become qualified AT Multi rated pilots, Hundreds of ATC personnel saw the events live on radar screens, do we pop all of them? well over 40 million people watched the second plane fly into the second tower, and at least a few hundred thousand saw the first attack. Was this a major Psyops event? Building seven collapsed just as other buildings have when the same type of construction is given the same kind of treatment. It caught on fire, it was subjected to a Major earth quake like event when the neighboring buildings collapsed, locally that event was equated to nearly a 8.4 richter event. times two.

The people involved were smart, they chose only coast to coast flights, because they were most likely to be fully fueled, They chose domestics, because it was less likely that a person of Arab decent was going to be questions on a domestic flight than a overseas flight, They chose Aircraft that had been expected to fly in from cross country, also leading to the chance that the planes would be fully loaded with fuel. A 767_200 ER runs max takeoff weight at 395,000 pounds, with something like 57,000 pounds of fuel onboard for a cross country flight. IT might be expected that somewhere between 5 and 7,000 pounds of fuel be burned on take off and basic climb out. so the AC hits with about 50.000 LBS of Jet A. or 30,000 liters, or give or take,, 7,500 gallons of JetA, which has a BTU level of about 137,000 per gallon. Most home furnaces are rated about 70,000 BTU output per hour, so one gallon of JetA will run a furnace full force for two hours, Thats a lot of heat. Times that times 7,500 gallons, add in the combustibles of the building they hit as well as the combustables of the AC added into the blaze. SO you have in one raging inferno, well over a BILLION BTUs all going at once, with the added influx of plentiful draft or air, which was being sucked in and added to the blast furnace effects of the conflagration. Thats WAYYYYYY WAYYYY more than enough heat to melt steel, or to get it to its high cherry stage where it becomes plastic, or malleable. Add to this that the AC did major damage by the sheer force of impact, its amazing those buildings stood at all.

So don't come back with some odd hypothetical, saying "Hmmmmm?" until you can challenge FACTS.


- BBC: Hijack 'suspects' alive and well

hmm?


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul and 9/11 truthers (split: Palin running for Prez...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:21 pm 
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You might also mention that an entire side of Building 7 was missing after the attacks...there were structural flaws that made a collapse inevitable. Not to mention that emergency fuel was stored in that building. Fire + fuel = bigger fire. And fire has a nasty tendency to further compromise an already compromised building.

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 Post subject: Re: Palin running for Prez, or........
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Blued Steel wrote:
Pakrat wrote:
Andrew Rothman wrote:
Th eproblem with conspiracy theories, in general, is the notion that large numbers of people can coordinate in perfect secrecy and maintain that secrecy for life. People just don't work that way.

Not maintain secrecy. Maintaining isn't required. Who knows what the "idiots" really know, it's not all 'theory,' until they get lumped into the conspiracy theory bucket.

WTF are you smoking....Do you have any idea what size of a project it would take to pull something like this off, and how many people would be involved supplying the people involved, and the people they live with, who ask "How was your day"? Have you ever worked on a large project?

This statement was addressing the fact that secrets need not be kept. 100 people saying "the government did it" could be the same people that actually did it. We would never know, because they are being labeled conspiracy nuts/idiots/troofers. You don't have to kill people or make them disappear, just make them look like a nut.

Quote:
Pakrat wrote:
What's the quickest and easiest way to stop the truth from getting out? Well, kill them... But after that, when you don't want people to say "he must have been right, he got killed"? Discreditation.

SO this several hundred or so people involved just got "forgotten", Who the hell doesn't remember people, People just don't disappear in large numbers without someone noticing, not to mention, families, (Say Dear, didn't we have two son's home for Christmas last year?") Friends, coworkers, etc.?

No one said forgotten. I said "discreditation". If someone came out and said "I planned everything in the attack", you would call him an idiot and dismiss them.

Quote:
pakrat wrote:
Quote:
Pakrat wrote:
and the things that make one go 'hmmm' get called BS.

There's is nothing in a 9/11 troofer conspiracy delusion to make a rational person go 'hmmm'. It is BS.

- Where did Flight 93 go?

"Fight 93 dug a great big smoking hole in the ground, exactly the way Large AC do when they hit in an almost straight nose down attitude...Look at the hole in the everglades that Valu jet made, exactly the same. Enough personal bits and AC parts were recovered from the hole to prove it was what it was, unless you add in another few hundred inspectors, construction workers, etc who are just "disappeared" to make it more convenient for you...."

Again who said that the inspectors, construction workers, etc disappeared? What did you smoke before you misread EVERYTHING I wrote?

Quote:
[b]These buildings fell because the people who attacked them were pretty damn smart people, you have to be to set up this type of operation, not to mention, become qualified AT Multi rated pilots, Hundreds of ATC personnel saw the events live on radar screens, do we pop all of them? well over 40 million people watched the second plane fly into the second tower, and at least a few hundred thousand saw the first attack. Was this a major Psyops event? Building seven collapsed just as other buildings have when the same type of construction is given the same kind of treatment. It caught on fire, it was subjected to a Major earth quake like event when the neighboring buildings collapsed, locally that event was equated to nearly a 8.4 richter event. times two.

Smart people? Really? Take plane, crash into building, repeat. Then an unrelated buiding will disappear too. How many buildings have disappeared like this? You seem to have something in mind.

Quote:
The people involved were smart, they chose only coast to coast flights, because they were most likely to be fully fueled, They chose domestics, because it was less likely that a person of Arab decent was going to be questions on a domestic flight than a overseas flight, They chose Aircraft that had been expected to fly in from cross country, also leading to the chance that the planes would be fully loaded with fuel. A 767_200 ER runs max takeoff weight at 395,000 pounds, with something like 57,000 pounds of fuel onboard for a cross country flight. IT might be expected that somewhere between 5 and 7,000 pounds of fuel be burned on take off and basic climb out. so the AC hits with about 50.000 LBS of Jet A. or 30,000 liters, or give or take,, 7,500 gallons of JetA, which has a BTU level of about 137,000 per gallon. Most home furnaces are rated about 70,000 BTU output per hour, so one gallon of JetA will run a furnace full force for two hours, Thats a lot of heat. Times that times 7,500 gallons, add in the combustibles of the building they hit as well as the combustables of the AC added into the blaze. SO you have in one raging inferno, well over a BILLION BTUs all going at once, with the added influx of plentiful draft or air, which was being sucked in and added to the blast furnace effects of the conflagration. Thats WAYYYYYY WAYYYY more than enough heat to melt steel, or to get it to its high cherry stage where it becomes plastic, or malleable. Add to this that the AC did major damage by the sheer force of impact, its amazing those buildings stood at all.

I will give you credit for doing the math. But, you are giving them way too much credit.

Quote:
So don't come back with some odd hypothetical, saying "Hmmmmm?" until you can challenge FACTS.

It was said that 'nothing about these attacks makes a rational person go "hmm" '. I was challenging that statement, as there are a ton of questions. Nothing in my statement was to prove/disprove the facts of the attacks.

---------------
jdege wrote:
If Building 7 was rigged to collapse the same way the towers were, why did it collapse five hours later? And, for that matter, why didn't the other four buildings collapse?

The point is, why did it collapse at all? I am not saying it was rigged, I'm not saying any of them were rigged. I want to know what the fuck happened to the building. I have never seen a building drop out of sight in 6.5 seconds... Except those that have been rigged.

---------------
Blued Steel wrote:
9/11 truthers are simply ignorant of physics and modern construction. It is like the trick of the in column popcan. Take a pair of empty popcans. Set them on a smooth surface and bridge them with a board. Now stand on the board. It will support you. Now flick either pop can with a finger and you get instant wall failure.

Stack a few pop cans, hit the second can from the top and you have a few bent cans going everywhere, not one flat pancake.

Now the towers were designed to pancake, so I'm willing to believe that the towers fell in a completely natural manor (for what happened to them). But, building 7 did not have that design, I expect to see a more cascading failure and not just it falling in on itself exactly like the others.

--------------
kecker wrote:
You might also mention that an entire side of Building 7 was missing after the attacks...

More of a gash than an entire side missing.

--------------
In researching for this post, I found a (listed as) possible reason for Building 7 falling. First, they already suspect the diesel fuel stored in the building was the reason. Now, I found an article that says the lines for the diesel ran close to some sort of supports. They were already warned that a fire could take those out.

I can accept possibilities. This sounds like a plausible reason. Why didn't anyone just say this instead "idiot, ignorant, delusions, fire bad, troofer" ???????????? oh, and ?


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul and 9/11 truthers (split: Palin running for Prez...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:20 pm 
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Quote:
The point is, why did it collapse at all? I am not saying it was rigged, I'm not saying any of them were rigged. I want to know what the fuck happened to the building. I have never seen a building drop out of sight in 6.5 seconds... Except those that have been rigged.

How many buildings have you seen drop?

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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul and 9/11 truthers (split: Palin running for Prez...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:27 pm 
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How am I giving them too much credit? Can you fly a multi engined jet transpor?? Can you fly a piper cub?

These people were very smart, horrifically misgided, but very smart.

Why did they Only chose aircraft that were fully loaded. Most planes are flown with minimum fuel loads plus mandated reserves because weight is money in flight.

Bulding 7 came down for the same reason. The structural steel got hot enough to become plastic. Once it reached that stage the bar joists and concrete spancrete panels sagged until the "firecut" were exceded and they then fell out of the joist sockets and hangers and the floors collapsed.

All buildings are built under the same idea. You have a dead load of the weight of the building and construct a system to support that dead load as well as accomodating an expected live load. Building fail when the live exceeds the desgned limits or the structure is weakened below the designed minimums. Almost anything can sufficiently weaken a structure to the point of failure. It can be termites, water erosion, corrosion, improper modifications, traumatic events, movement, weather, or pretty much anything.

When one starts dealing with high buildings and the engineering involved in making and destroying such building you have to have it exactly right. Remember 9/11 was the second attempt to down the towers.

The first attack was by truck bomb in the lower levels of the basements. Even though that bomb went off and did significant damage the tower didnot fall because they did not account for the butressing effect of all the underground structure all sort of leaning in and preventing a dominoes effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Ron Paul and 9/11 truthers (split: Palin running for Prez...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:58 pm 
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Blued Steel wrote:
These people were very smart, horrifically misgided, but very smart.


That's one thing that many people tend to overlook, regardless of their theories on 9/11.

We sometimes have the mentality in the USA that we are the only educated country. Oops.

Don't ever underestimate this enemy. We aren't talking about a bunch of uneducated nomads. There are doctors, engineers, and other professionals in their ranks, all using their intelligence to figure out how to hurt...well, us. They train, they analyze, they spy...and they hate. They hate with a passion that we can't understand, because it's born of a horribly misguided and bastardized version of a religion that is drilled into them from birth.

When a person has that much hate, combined with intelligence (or at least intelligent leaders), large amounts of funding, and a total lack of fear regarding death...look out. Somebody's going to die.

-Mark


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