Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /home/content/99/5061499/html/domains/twincitiescarry/forum/includes/bbcode.php on line 112
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3824: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/bbcode.php:483)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3826: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/bbcode.php:483)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3827: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/bbcode.php:483)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3828: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/bbcode.php:483)
Twin Cities Carry Forum Archive • View topic - "Coconut Charlie" debate
 
  Index  •  FAQ  •  Search  

It is currently Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:56 am

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 213 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 15  Next
 "Coconut Charlie" debate 
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:41 am 
On time out
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 228
joelr wrote:
We can even make it cheaper, if all they really want is the card as a precaution: instead of going for a good class, they can get three other friends together, buy a "four pack" from Penaz, and drop their class fees to $55 -- he'll even throw in lunch -- and just get the Utah permit.


Joel, I'm kinda curious about what you mean when you say "instead of going for a good class" in your statement above. I took Joe's class about 18 months ago as did a few friends and I've heard nothing but positive from everyone. Larry at Gunstop referred Joe to me as did some patrons that were at Gunstop. Even your Site Administrator calls Joe a good friend in the thread below:

http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewto ... b47dcb19c7

I know many of the instructors that frequent this forum are top-notch including yourself, but I'd appreciate your reasoning of why Joe Penaz isn't among the group of top-notch. Thanks!

_________________
On probation; can't post until at least 5/31/2009


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:50 am 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
Magnum Mikie wrote:
joelr wrote:
We can even make it cheaper, if all they really want is the card as a precaution: instead of going for a good class, they can get three other friends together, buy a "four pack" from Penaz, and drop their class fees to $55 -- he'll even throw in lunch -- and just get the Utah permit.


Joel, I'm kinda curious about what you mean when you say "instead of going for a good class" in your statement above. I took Joe's class about 18 months ago as did a few friends and I've heard nothing but positive from everyone. Larry at Gunstop referred Joe to me as did some patrons that were at Gunstop. Even your Site Administrator calls Joe a good friend in the thread below:

http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewto ... b47dcb19c7

I know many of the instructors that frequent this forum are top-notch including yourself, but I'd appreciate your reasoning of why Joe Penaz isn't among the group of top-notch. Thanks!


Image


Last edited by mrokern on Sat May 09, 2009 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 6:15 pm 
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:24 pm
Posts: 471
Location: 12 miles east of Lake Wobegon
**cough** Could a moderator please fix the Ubb code in the post, above, so that the quote is not misattributed to me?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 6:19 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
MostlyHarmless wrote:
**cough** Could a moderator please fix the Ubb code in the post, above, so that the quote is not misattributed to me?


I didn't even have to use my mod superpowers...twas my own post!

And now, back to my popcorn...

-Mark


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:29 pm 
In the time out chair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 36
Just an observation, but I'm curious as to why instructors are *so* defensive about their pricing. I notice that certain folks really look down upon most instructors, and feel they are the #1, best thing since sliced-bread, instructor. A little pompous, IMHO, but who am I?

I think the 'I do X preparation before every class' argument is bullsh!t, as every class is the same. You've got a venue for the course, and your range is all worked out. I help with some DNR firearms classes and some other things, and we don't have that much invested in the setup, time-wise.

I have this argument with many service companies. I run a security firm, and I feel my prices are reasonable. I make a great income, even though I don't have the highest hourly rate, and I don't have to nickel-and-dime my customers. Some of my competitors have shop-fees, and trip-charges they tack on, claiming they need to recover the cost of drive time, vehicle expenses, etc. I call that a cost of doing business. Instructors, I would point out that this can, in a way, be what you're doing, according to your posted 'justifications.' Your laptop, projector, venue rental, etc. It's a one time expense, in some cases, so why must your charge for it for all your classes, forever? Also, most business venues have projectors and even laptops or computers to use, if you're renting their facility.

In my uneducated opinion, the consistent crap you dish out on 'Coconut Charlie,' et al, shows a lack of confidence in your own rates.

Now, I'm off to figure out why, after many emails, a voice mail, and my payment, the good instructor I'm registered with for a class this Saturday can't be bothered to respond to me. I mean, he's spending so much time preparing, to justify the fee, I figured he'd have a minute for a call or email.


:roll:


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:55 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
*deleted*

Joel can stand up for himself just fine without needing my help.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:55 pm 
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:37 pm
Posts: 1571
Location: Detroit Lakes, MN
ecrist wrote:
Just an observation, but I'm curious as to why instructors are *so* defensive about their pricing. I notice that certain folks really look down upon most instructors, and feel they are the #1, best thing since sliced-bread, instructor. A little pompous, IMHO, but who am I?

I think the 'I do X preparation before every class' argument is bullsh!t, as every class is the same. You've got a venue for the course, and your range is all worked out. I help with some DNR firearms classes and some other things, and we don't have that much invested in the setup, time-wise.

I have this argument with many service companies. I run a security firm, and I feel my prices are reasonable. I make a great income, even though I don't have the highest hourly rate, and I don't have to nickel-and-dime my customers. Some of my competitors have shop-fees, and trip-charges they tack on, claiming they need to recover the cost of drive time, vehicle expenses, etc. I call that a cost of doing business. Instructors, I would point out that this can, in a way, be what you're doing, according to your posted 'justifications.' Your laptop, projector, venue rental, etc. It's a one time expense, in some cases, so why must your charge for it for all your classes, forever? Also, most business venues have projectors and even laptops or computers to use, if you're renting their facility.

In my uneducated opinion, the consistent crap you dish out on 'Coconut Charlie,' et al, shows a lack of confidence in your own rates.

Now, I'm off to figure out why, after many emails, a voice mail, and my payment, the good instructor I'm registered with for a class this Saturday can't be bothered to respond to me. I mean, he's spending so much time preparing, to justify the fee, I figured he'd have a minute for a call or email.


:roll:

I think one issue here is that very very few instructors in the area are doing this as a livlihood...as a business to live on and support oneself. It is fairly easy to (a) have fun doing the classes and (b) make some additional McDonald's money.....but, of all the instructors that I know locally (meaning based in Minnesota)...I know only one...just one...that makes a living doing classes. (Now, whether more could do so if they opted to do so is another issue that may or may not be accurate; the bottom line though is that it is a very rare existing commodity.)

Accordingly, people base their class fees on many factors...and there is no right or wrong answer. If you don't want to pay Joel $185, then take the class elsewhere. If you don't want to pay Paul his $65 because it cannot possibly be any good since he values his class so low, then take someone elses It is not like there aren't any options out there! And....at renewal time...do yourself a favor and take the renewal class from someone other than your initial class.....you can always pick up something useful and perhaps get different perspectives etc. Or not.

Given the very wide disparity of costs, there really is not a sustainable arguement that the class participation fee is really any big barrier to getting a permit.

I have been doing classes at Bill's in Robbinsdale for about 3 years...charging from $0 in a few cases, but mostly $45-$75. I know many other instructors that also have had many "deals"...students...teachers...veterans...couples....etc etc. There have been and are many many options for low cost classes with skilled and very capable instructors. I just don't see cost as a real barrier. It might be vocalized as a barrier, but I am not buying it when there are so many viable options.

_________________
Paul Horvick
http://shootingsafely.com
---
Contact us to schedule a class for you and your friends, and check our website for more information http://shootingsafely.com


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:38 pm 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
mrokern wrote:
Magnum Mikie wrote:
joelr wrote:
We can even make it cheaper, if all they really want is the card as a precaution: instead of going for a good class, they can get three other friends together, buy a "four pack" from Penaz, and drop their class fees to $55 -- he'll even throw in lunch -- and just get the Utah permit.


Joel, I'm kinda curious about what you mean when you say "instead of going for a good class" in your statement above. I took Joe's class about 18 months ago as did a few friends and I've heard nothing but positive from everyone. Larry at Gunstop referred Joe to me as did some patrons that were at Gunstop. Even your Site Administrator calls Joe a good friend in the thread below:

http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewto ... b47dcb19c7

I know many of the instructors that frequent this forum are top-notch including yourself, but I'd appreciate your reasoning of why Joe Penaz isn't among the group of top-notch. Thanks!


Image
Well, I will have some comments, but, yes, I don't think of Joe Penaz as even middle-notch as an instructor, and I'll be happy to explain why, in some detail.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:54 pm 
Longtime Regular
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 2264
Location: Eden Prairie
joelr wrote:
mrokern wrote:
Magnum Mikie wrote:
joelr wrote:
We can even make it cheaper, if all they really want is the card as a precaution: instead of going for a good class, they can get three other friends together, buy a "four pack" from Penaz, and drop their class fees to $55 -- he'll even throw in lunch -- and just get the Utah permit.


Joel, I'm kinda curious about what you mean when you say "instead of going for a good class" in your statement above. I took Joe's class about 18 months ago as did a few friends and I've heard nothing but positive from everyone. Larry at Gunstop referred Joe to me as did some patrons that were at Gunstop. Even your Site Administrator calls Joe a good friend in the thread below:

http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewto ... b47dcb19c7

I know many of the instructors that frequent this forum are top-notch including yourself, but I'd appreciate your reasoning of why Joe Penaz isn't among the group of top-notch. Thanks!


Image
Well, I will have some comments, but, yes, I don't think of Joe Penaz as even middle-notch as an instructor, and I'll be happy to explain why, in some detail.


I'm guessing I got quoted due to how cute I look eating popcorn. I know (and agree with) your thoughts on old Charlie. :wink:


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:14 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
ecrist wrote:
The only trait I've seen, reading here, is most of the instructor-members of this forum are overly defensive about their pricing, and are overly-critical of other instructors, who they feel are too cheap.
I'm sorry -- how do you have any basis to know decide whether or not I, for example, am overly critical of another instructor? Absent your explanation -- in great detail, please -- to what extent should I titrate my criticism of an instructor who has let a student of his point a gun at me at the range -- as Penaz has -- to meet with your approval?

Give me some help here.

I think that, alone, is a pretty serious matter, but, obviously, you know better, as I'm not merely critical of Penaz (which is fair enough; I am), but I'm overly critical of him.

How many unsolicited calls from his students should I receive, asking for pretty basic information that should be covered in any carry class, before my criticism of him becomes that undesirable "overly"?

Give me a number. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe I haven't reached that magic number, so maybe I'm "overly" critical of that.

How many times should I point to where he takes students -- about whom he knows nothing, other than that they've shown up at the range, before the class, -- through a qualification shoot before receiving any instruction (at least from him; maybe they're all experienced shooters; maybe they've never touched a gun before in their lives) before my criticism of that bad practice becomes that unbecoming "overly"?

Lemme know, when you work it out. Let's start on that, and then we can talk about the other concerns, and why I'm hoping that, if and when some tv reporter sneaks a camera into Penaz's class the lege isn't in session.

_________________
Just a guy.


Last edited by joelr on Mon May 25, 2009 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:28 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
Magnum Mikie wrote:
joelr wrote:
We can even make it cheaper, if all they really want is the card as a precaution: instead of going for a good class, they can get three other friends together, buy a "four pack" from Penaz, and drop their class fees to $55 -- he'll even throw in lunch -- and just get the Utah permit.


Joel, I'm kinda curious about what you mean when you say "instead of going for a good class" in your statement above. I took Joe's class about 18 months ago as did a few friends and I've heard nothing but positive from everyone. Larry at Gunstop referred Joe to me as did some patrons that were at Gunstop. Even your Site Administrator calls Joe a good friend in the thread below:

http://twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewto ... b47dcb19c7

I know many of the instructors that frequent this forum are top-notch including yourself, but I'd appreciate your reasoning of why Joe Penaz isn't among the group of top-notch. Thanks!
Sure. I've gotten far too many calls from (to be fair: people who, upon inquiry, have told me -- all of them could be lying, for all I know -- that they were) Penaz's students -- on pretty basic stuff to think he could possibly be top-notch.

I don't even have to go into the unsafe gun handling stuff or the, err, somewhat comical apparent pretense of possession of a time machine (if he is really able to do a 6-8 hour class which he starts at nine and has long since vanished from the range before 2 -- let's remember that it takes a while to drive there, and a few moments to actually shoot the qual), the, err, carelessness with other folks' intellectual property, the various perhaps unwitting misrepresentations (let's give him the benefit of the doubt) for me to conclude he's not exactly top-notch.

That enough? Or do I really have to go into more detail?

Maybe I should. Or maybe that, plus this, is more than enough to suggest that instructors who are so bloody easy to parody aren't the cream of the crop.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:56 am 
In the time out chair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 36
joelr wrote:
ecrist wrote:
The only trait I've seen, reading here, is most of the instructor-members of this forum are overly defensive about their pricing, and are overly-critical of other instructors, who they feel are too cheap.


I'm sorry -- how do you have any basis to know decide or not I, for example, am overly critical of another instructor? Absent your explanation -- in great detail, please -- to what extent should I titrate my criticism of an instructor who has let a student of his point a gun at me at the range -- as Penaz has -- to meet with your approval?


First, you're not the only instructor here. I've seen your arguments in other threads. Your problems haven't really been quantified in one place, and most of the other instructors seem to simply rally behind your consistent ranting, without evidence of their own. One claims to be good friends with Mr. Penaz. Something of a mixed message.

joelr wrote:
Give me some help here.

I think that, alone, is a pretty serious matter, but, obviously, you know better, as I'm not merely critical of Penaz (which is fair enough; I am), but I'm overly critical of him.


Now you're getting to the overly defensive part of my argument. You don't seem to be able to have an honest discussion with us, and instead start throwing our arguments back at us, the same as my 7 year-old would do. It's great you have strong feelings on the matter, by why not try to bring us to your line of thinking, rather than attacking us back. If we knew what you did, we wouldn't have asked the question.[/quote]

joelr wrote:
How many unsolicited calls from his students should I receive, asking for pretty basic information that should be covered in any carry class, before my criticism of him becomes that undesirable "overly"?

Give me a number. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe I haven't reached that magic number, so maybe I'm "overly" critical of that.

How many times should I point to where he takes students -- about whom he knows nothing, other than that they've shown up at the range, before the class, -- through a qualification shoot before receiving any instruction (at least from him; maybe they're all experienced shooters; maybe they've never touched a gun before in their lives) before my criticism of that bad practice becomes that unbecoming "overly"?


I've taken no such calls, as I'm not an instructor, nor any sort of authority on the matter. There is no number, and I've not said you were wrong. As a matter of fact, I never mentioned your name, specifically. The instances you point out above *are* good reasons to doubt Mr. Penaz's ability as an instructor. However, does it mean that, because person X offers a $55 class (if you get 4 people to take it together), it's a bad class? I think this particular 'deal' makes good business sense. The same amount of preparation goes into a class of 15 as goes into a class of 1. Were I an instructor, I'd probably offer a similar deal, to attract more clientele.

joelr wrote:
Lemme know, when you work it out. Let's start on that, and then we can talk about the other concerns, and why I'm hoping that, if and when some tv reporter sneaks a camera into Penaz's class the lege isn't in session.


Why don't you just share your experiences with us, and as I said above, bring us over to your side. You seem to be drawing a line in the sand with you and other instructors on one side, and us wee little clients on the other. Honestly, I don't play the favorites game, and I'm sure others don't, either. It takes a big person to humbly accept criticism; big people seem to be few and far between around here...


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:07 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
Yes, I've turned your arguments around to point at you because, well, they're the sorts of arguments that are lame enough that it's kind of easy.

Yes, you're getting all defensive here. How . . . interesting.

They're not really arguments, at all; they're pouting, just like a seven-year-old would do. You apparently want me to explain to you, to your satisfaction -- which you have the ability to withhold for whatever reason, or none, that you care to -- and are just stamping your foot and ignoring the specifics -- not, by any means, all that exist -- that I've provided, as that's not enough for you. I point to some of the same specifics I've provided here, before, but that's not enough for you. No, your foot stomping doesn't constitute criticism; it constitutes foot stomping.

Cool; that's fine. But homie don't play that game. Not with my seven-year-old, when my kids were that young; not with you.

Quote:
If we knew what you did, we wouldn't have asked the question.
Sure. But it's more like, "if you've read and understood what's been said, here, you wouldn't ask that question, unless you were questioning the motives of the folks saying that stuff here."

Which is, by the way, precisely what you're doing, and I don't think it's accidental, as I was not born yesterday, and have seen your games played before, including the well, I didn't mention you by name one.

Does that even work with Middle School kids, these days? Won't work with me, kid. Trust me.

I've bad news; the butter actually is melting in your mouth.

But, yeah, I haven't published the bizarre emails that Penaz has sent me, which have not exactly raised my opinion of him. I haven't gone into details of all (or even most) of the damn support calls I've gotten from Penaz's students, or -- my particular favorite -- the one I got from Penaz back in 2005, about carry at the Civic center. I'm tempted, and I probably will, to some extent, but I'll do it on my schedule, for my amusement, and not in response to the stomping of your little footsie.

Sorry; doesn't fly with me. Although I'm not all that sorry. I know it's pretty arrogant of me, but I think that, over the years, I've earned some credibility. If you disagree, that's fine.

But you are quite right: I haven't assembled a book called Everything That's Wrong with Joe Penaz But You Didn't Specifically Ask About.

I'll be happy to, if you'd like to publish it; call my agent, and let's talk advance. You need her number?

_________________
Just a guy.


Last edited by joelr on Sun May 10, 2009 8:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:25 am 
The Man
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am
Posts: 7970
Location: Minneapolis MN
mrokern wrote:
*deleted*

Joel can stand up for himself just fine without needing my help.
Well, yeah, but I do get kinda crotchety.

Reminds me of an old story about Hillel, Shamai, and an ancestor of mine. It's somewhere on Livejournal, but I can't find it at the moment.

Damn.

_________________
Just a guy.


Offline
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:30 am 
In the time out chair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 36
Wow. Thanks for enlightening me further. We've asked why the cheap guys are bad instructors. You can only really come up with, 'because I have experiences showing they're bad instructors.'

Here's what I've been able to glean from various posts, specifically about Joe Penaz:

1) His students aren't properly supervised at the range. (One pointed a gun directly at joelr.
2) He provides poor, or no, after-class support, so students call other instructors.
3) His classes are less expensive.
4) He doesn't provide one of joelr's books as part of the class.
5) He doesn't spend as much time at the range with his students as other instructors.
6) His actual qualification techniques are questioned. (By other instructors. They apparently meet Minnesota requirements.)

Now, number 4 will probably be perceived as a stomping of my feet by some, but it's a legitimate point. While I've certainly changed my opinion of joelr in the last 24 hours, I will say his book is worth the money. I've not purchased one at this point, as it's bundled into the class fee for which I'll be attending this week.

I don't need every email, phone log, and transcripts of personal conversations. I'm curious how much time you spend qualifying your students. What's the minimum and maximum? At what point, do you tell someone, 'I'm sorry, but you're just not ready?' What questions do students have for you, which aren't answered by these lame instructors?

Would this list be considered generally complete? If so, use this as a marketing opportunity and explain why our money is better spent with one of you. (For the record, I'm not taking Joe Penaz's class. I *did* spend more money than that on my class.)


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 213 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 15  Next

This is a static archive the Twin Cities Carry forum, maintained as a public service by the current forum of record, The Minnesota Carry Forum.

All times are UTC - 6 hours


 Who is online 

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


 
Index  |  FAQ  |  Search

phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group