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Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules
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joelr
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:53 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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DeanC wrote: Paper plates are a bad idea at an indoor range because your POA is too close to the target hanger.
Shoot long enough and you will hit the target hanger and you will be embarrassed when you have to explain to the range staff that you broke their stuff because you are a cheap bastard.
Hopefully that is as bad as it gets and you don't get a ricochet that hurts someone.
I don't use targets printed on 8½ x 11" paper at indoor ranges for the same reason. Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine.
_________________ Just a guy.
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jac714
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:22 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:40 am Posts: 1204 Location: Golden Valley, MN
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The best place to get targets locally is LE Targets, this is where Bill's gets their targets adn they have no minimum order. www.letargets.comthey are up in circle pines, you can order and pick up at their will call.
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DeanC
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:32 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am Posts: 5270 Location: Minneapolis
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joelr wrote: Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine. That only works if the target hanger clips are new and have the strength to hold the cardboard. In my experience, some doofus has usually shot the clips and they are bent and won't hold the cardboard very well and it comes loose after a few strings and falls to the floor beyond your reach.
_________________ I am defending myself... in favor of that!
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joelr
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:34 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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jac714 wrote: The best place to get targets locally is LE Targets, this is where Bill's gets their targets adn they have no minimum order. www.letargets.comthey are up in circle pines, you can order and pick up at their will call. I think so. If there's a better place locally, I'd love to hear about it, because they're great to deal with. Bought lots of targets and dummy rounds from them, over the years. And there's days when it seems to work for me.
_________________ Just a guy.
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joelr
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:35 am |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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DeanC wrote: joelr wrote: Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine. That only works if the target hanger clips are new and have the strength to hold the cardboard. In my experience, some doofus has usually shot the clips and they are bent and won't hold the cardboard very well and it comes loose after a few strings and falls to the floor beyond your reach. Sure. But, in that situation, just substitute a sheet of newspaper or a big shot-up target or whatever.
_________________ Just a guy.
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Andrew Rothman
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:49 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am Posts: 6767 Location: Twin Cities
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jdege wrote: joelr wrote: Under MN, law, of course, the container must simple be "closed and fastened," and not a purse. 624.714 says "contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, or securely tied package" 97B.045 is more explicit: "in a gun case expressly made to contain a firearm, and the case fully encloses the firearm by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or otherwise fastened, and without any portion of the firearm exposed" In this case, the court says that since the 624.714 doesn't define the terms, the district court was quite proper in looking to 97B.045 for a definition. For a definition of "unloaded," not "cased." Quote: But this case says that a holster is a proper case within the meaning of 624.714. In my mind, the typical holster would not meet the standards of 97B.045, so the two decisions are contradictory. The only conclusion I can draw is to be careful about how fine a point you draw, when you're trying to draw logical conclusions about the law. They are not contradictory. The first looked to 97B.045 for a definition of "unloaded," since 624.714 didn't have one. The second case used a VERY loose interpretation of "cased" from 624.714. It's black letter law that in the case of a contradiction between criminal code and hunting laws, criminal code wins. Quote: 97A.021 CONSTRUCTION.Subdivision 1.Code of Criminal Procedure. A provision of the game and fish laws that is inconsistent with the Code of Criminal Procedure or of penal law is only effective under the game and fish laws.
_________________ * NRA, UT, MADFI certified Minnesota Permit to Carry instructor, and one of 66,513 law-abiding permit holders. Read my blog.
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sheepdog
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:05 am |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:25 pm Posts: 367 Location: Forest Lake, MN
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I usually print off a bunch of targets from this site: http://www.mytargets.com/If you google "printable targets", you'll get a bunch. With the large cardboard hanging up at the range, I can usually fit 4 targets on there with the range-supplied staple guns (be sure to ask for some spare staples prior to entering the range as I usually find the staplers empty or near-empty). Many have already addressed the basic rules for shooting safely at the range in this thread. One thing I would add is that it is a good idea to keep the action open on your firearm and muzzle pointed at the floor if you must bring it from the shooting rest to the rear benchtop (like if you bring multiple guns with you and you are switching up). Better yet, bring the case to the shooting rest to case/uncase the firearm. Any firearm left on the rear bench should be in it's respective case, unloaded, and out of sight. Only load your firearm at the shooting rest and keep the muzzle downrange at all times.
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mrokern
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:20 am |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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DeanC wrote: joelr wrote: Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine. That only works if the target hanger clips are new and have the strength to hold the cardboard. In my experience, some doofus has usually shot the clips and they are bent and won't hold the cardboard very well and it comes loose after a few strings and falls to the floor beyond your reach. I've never once had that issue at BPR, only at Bill's (where it's a CONSTANT pain in the ass). At BPR, I give the clamp a good solid tug closed until I feel the teeth punch into the cardboard. At that point, short of a grenade, it isn't coming loose. -Mark
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jdege
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:35 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:23 pm Posts: 1419 Location: SE MPLS
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Andrew Rothman wrote: jdege wrote: In my mind, the typical holster would not meet the standards of 97B.045, so the two decisions are contradictory. The only conclusion I can draw is to be careful about how fine a point you draw, when you're trying to draw logical conclusions about the law. They are not contradictory. The first looked to 97B.045 for a definition of "unloaded," since 624.714 didn't have one. The second case used a VERY loose interpretation of "cased" from 624.714. It's black letter law that in the case of a contradiction between criminal code and hunting laws, criminal code wins. I'm not going to argue you on specifics, but I will continue to maintain that it's unwise to do too much experimenting around the margins. If the law says "cased", get a real case, that is clearly and incontrovertibly a case. You may eventually win on whether your purse or your holster is a case, but your life won't be better if you do.
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MostlyHarmless
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:17 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:24 pm Posts: 471 Location: 12 miles east of Lake Wobegon
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Or get the permit.
Some -- many -- cops like to bust people for technical violations of gun laws. It is seen, in some -- many -- agencies as an effective means to prevent violence before it starts, and as a starting point for further investigation (like searching the vehicle or running the serial number of the gun). There are lots of ways a gun can come up stolen on NCIC even if you are the lawful owner. Or a thorough cop might find drugs hidden in the car by its former owner or you kid or ex. Or they might decide that you match the vague description of someone who committed a crime with a similar weapon.
The fact that your range bag isn't a purse might get you off at trial but it's probably not enough to get other evidence excluded, if their fishing expedition turns something up, and as we're fond of saying here, you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.
Not an area where I would choose to push it. I think that, for relative newcomers to firearms who don't have a carry permit, the wisest advice would be to keep a low profile and stay well within the boundaries. That would be cased, unloaded, and ideally in the trunk or the rear of the car.
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DeanC
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:10 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:54 am Posts: 5270 Location: Minneapolis
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_________________ I am defending myself... in favor of that!
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akodo
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:16 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:41 pm Posts: 46
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IANAL but my understanding is that FOPA creates a 'floor' by setting conditions that nothing can be more restrictive than.
Just because FOPA exists doesn't stop a state from having their own laws that are much less restrictive...which is the case in MN.
In theory, if a state had ZERO gun laws regarding transport of a firearm, then the FOPA still exists as a floor, and you could do anything you want as far as transport, such has having a loaded gun stuck in one of those cases that attack to your sun visor intended for holding CDs
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singhcr
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Post subject: Re: Total Newbie Needs Help Understanding Shooting Range Rules Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:47 am |
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Journeyman Member |
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Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:36 pm Posts: 67 Location: Apple Valley, MN
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joelr wrote: DeanC wrote: Paper plates are a bad idea at an indoor range because your POA is too close to the target hanger.
Shoot long enough and you will hit the target hanger and you will be embarrassed when you have to explain to the range staff that you broke their stuff because you are a cheap bastard.
Hopefully that is as bad as it gets and you don't get a ricochet that hurts someone.
I don't use targets printed on 8½ x 11" paper at indoor ranges for the same reason. Sure. But the simple workaround -- it's the standard at BPR -- is to tape the target to a large piece of cardboard, setting it at shoulder height. As long as it's about shoulder-height, you can use as small a target as you want, and if you can keep the rounds on the cardboard -- and away from the hangar -- you're fine. That's what I do whenever I go to an indoor range. I've never purchased a target in my life- I always use the 100yd rifle targets from Surplusrifleforum.com. Firearms, ammo and range fees are expensive enough as they are, why make it more expensive and start buying targets?
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