Is there another recourse to places that post illegally?
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simian12
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Post subject: Is there another recourse to places that post illegally? Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:36 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:58 am Posts: 213
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I am just wondering since the MN Statue clearly states that a Landlord may not limit a tenent or their guests right to carry a lawful firearm is their any recourse after notifying them and asking them to take the sign down or change it. I mean what would happen if a bunch of us open carried at the Mall of America? Shouldn't there be something we can do to get these places to follow the Law just as we are expected to do?
Sorry if this seems ranty, but it just sort of pisses me off.
Thanks,
Mike
_________________ "I have carried a revolver; lots of us do, but they are the most innocent things in the world. Their deeds give a false character to their district."
- "Mark Twain"
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Pakrat
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:05 pm |
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Forum Moderator/<br>AV Geek |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:56 am Posts: 2422 Location: Hopkins, MN
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We could add a penalty to Joel's proposal for 2007(?).
Since one of the items had started controversy, there hasn't been any discussion on the proposal in a while.
I don't know exactly how it works, but in Texas, there is a unit that improper signage can be reported to. I don't know if there is a penalty in Texas, but this unit works with them to get the correct signage or they ask that it to be removed.
_________________ Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor; Utah Certified CFP Instructor
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SethB
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:11 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:02 pm Posts: 818 Location: downtown Mpls
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The First Amendment gives them (any "them") the right to post whatever signs they want; the signs are not illegal.
MN law specifies that only certain signs carry the force of law behind them.
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Moby Clarke
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:35 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:09 pm Posts: 965 Location: North Minneapolis
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This discussion begs the question, so what if we did open carry at the MOA? As their signs do not carry the weight of law, can we get in trouble if they ask us to leave? As a landlord, I would guess no; However if we were in a specific store in the MOA and were asked to leave, sign or no sign, then we could be sited. Thoughts?
_________________ It is about Liberty!
Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Chris
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Andrew Rothman
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:30 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am Posts: 6767 Location: Twin Cities
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This comes up again and again -- like at last month's CCRN meeting.
(Hint: You really oughta be at the next one, on Tuesday, February 7 at 7:30 at Hamline Law. Joel is speaking there.)
A non-compliant sign is just a piece of paper (and so is a compliant sign, mostly, but more on that in a second).
The sign portion of the law was a great win (thanks, Pat and Joe) -- and about the weakest private posting provision in all of the the carry states. Remember that carrying past a proper posting is not an offense until they notice you carrying, demand compliance, and you refuse to honor that demand by leaving.
Then it's necessary to be enough of a jerk to hang around for a cop to be called to issue your $25 petty misdemeanor ticket.
Because we-with-permits are a mostly peacable lot, to my knowledge not one such ticket has been issued in 2-1/2 years.
The law has nothing to say about non-compliant signs, except by exclusion: only compliant signs (or verbal notification) could, in the above scenario, lead to the hypothetical ticket.
That's a good thing. It lets businesses who would mostly rather avoid dealing with the whole issue post a clearly non-compliant sign, placating the blissninnies and placing no burden on us.
If we make a stink about this (non-)issue, it raises discussion about how toothless the current posting requirement is, and may lead to tighter rules.
No, I say with great firmness, let's let this particularly peacefully sleeping dog lie.
_________________ * NRA, UT, MADFI certified Minnesota Permit to Carry instructor, and one of 66,513 law-abiding permit holders. Read my blog.
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gunflint
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:56 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:00 am Posts: 1094 Location: Duluth
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What he said.
_________________ "I wish it to be remembered that I was the last man of my tribe to surrender my rifle" Sitting Bull
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simian12
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:02 am |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:58 am Posts: 213
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Yeah, I can see the logic behind all that, its just a bit frustrating when we as a group are so closely scrutinized and made to jump through artificial hoops and then the Anti's are allowed to just do about whatever they want. Its as if we have to walk on eggshells otherwise we could lose our right to carry or face stricter guidelines by which we are allowed to carry, but they are allowed to play dirty and never face the idea of loosening restrictions or being hassled by the Government or police. Doesn't seem fair, but I guess as I tell my kids life isn't always fair.
Thanks for listening,
Mike
_________________ "I have carried a revolver; lots of us do, but they are the most innocent things in the world. Their deeds give a false character to their district."
- "Mark Twain"
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Pakrat
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:19 pm |
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Forum Moderator/<br>AV Geek |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:56 am Posts: 2422 Location: Hopkins, MN
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Andrew Rothman wrote: (Hint: You really oughta be at the next one, on Tuesday, February 7 at 7:30 at Hamline Law. Joel is speaking there.)
I wonder what you're getting at... Quote: No, I say with great firmness, let's let this particularly peacefully sleeping dog lie.
Great points. Still stinks a little, but it still may be the best system in the US (in regards to postings).
Some states don't have any provisions for a business to post, but the penalty for trespassing is higher.
_________________ Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor; Utah Certified CFP Instructor
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joelr
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:19 pm |
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The Man |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:43 am Posts: 7970 Location: Minneapolis MN
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Pakrat wrote: Andrew Rothman wrote: (Hint: You really oughta be at the next one, on Tuesday, February 7 at 7:30 at Hamline Law. Joel is speaking there.)
I wonder what you're getting at... Quote: No, I say with great firmness, let's let this particularly peacefully sleeping dog lie. Great points. Still stinks a little, but it still may be the best system in the US (in regards to postings). Strong agreement. The only downside of it is that it kinda vaguely encourages some business owners to put up signs to placate the antis. In return for having a law that, basically, makes the posting simply a request with, explicitly, no penalty for violating it unless you also violate a request for compliance (and then only $25), I think that's a terrific tradeoff.
And, as I'll probably suggest a time or twelve on February 7, that happened precisely because the proponents asked for a loaf and a half, rather than a "reasonable" half loaf.
_________________ Just a guy.
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simian12
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:39 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:58 am Posts: 213
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Maybe we do need to have an open carry night at the Mall of America. I know for sure it would be a hoot to see reactions and such, but probobly not the safest route to take. Oh well I guess I'll have to wait indefinately for my response to the letter I sent to the Mall.
Have a great weekend,
Mike
_________________ "I have carried a revolver; lots of us do, but they are the most innocent things in the world. Their deeds give a false character to their district."
- "Mark Twain"
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hammAR
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:57 pm |
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Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:54 pm Posts: 1941 Location: N 44°56.621` W 093°11.256 (St Paul)
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An open carry night at MOA could very easily turn a lot of people (civilians not in the fight) against carry and guns in general.
Let alone the field day that the media would have as you know that they will present a picture of their "vision" of the typical uneducated, greasy, BDU wearing, beer slobbering, red-neck, with an AK47....
.............regardless of the facts, truth, or that we may all be dressed in Brooks Bros suits and ties...........
(ETA) Let's not go there.......................
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Srigs
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:24 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:40 am Posts: 3752 Location: East Suburbs
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Just go ahead and carry concealled! They still have to ask you to leave just like if they are not posted.
_________________ Srigs
Side Guard Holsters
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton
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Brewman
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:43 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:39 pm Posts: 1132 Location: Prior Lake, MN
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simian12 wrote: Maybe we do need to have an open carry night at the Mall of America. I know for sure it would be a hoot to see reactions and such, but probobly not the safest route to take. Oh well I guess I'll have to wait indefinately for my response to the letter I sent to the Mall. Have a great weekend, Mike
I can just picture the (insert bleeding heart's name here) column in the Strib if we were to do this. The media would be all over it, and probably not in a positive way.
Not that the idea isn't intriguing. Maybe we could get them to change the name of the theme park from Camp Snoopy to Camp Carry.
_________________ Brewman
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IDPA Shooter
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Post subject: I thought it was Camp Shoot Me with the Mall bangers Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:41 pm |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:40 pm Posts: 346 Location: St Michael
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[ Not that the idea isn't intriguing. Maybe we could get them to change the name of the theme park from Camp Snoopy to Camp Carry. [/quote]
I believe there was shooting in the park within the last year
_________________ Bob Jahn
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor -PPITH, PPOTH & RTBAV BCA Certified Training Organization under PPA Minnesota Permit to Carry Instructor Utah Certified CFP Instructor NRA CRSO, IDPA CSO
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Brewman
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:06 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:39 pm Posts: 1132 Location: Prior Lake, MN
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That's when they should have named it "Camp Shoot Me".
_________________ Brewman
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