Ammo: Light weight, high speed OR Heavy weight, low speed
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SoMN40S&W
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Post subject: Ammo: Light weight, high speed OR Heavy weight, low speed Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:15 pm |
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Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:37 am Posts: 31 Location: Southern MN
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If all other factors are equal (reliability, POA to POI, etc.), what would you carry? For example, Hornady TAP 40 S&W 155 grain has 479 lb-ft of energy and 1180 FPS, the 180 grain version has 361 lb-ft of energy and 950 FPS. What would be best for carry? Even though the lighter bullet has more energy, does the heavier bullet have better energy transfer and therefore more knockdown power?
_________________ Criminals love unarmed victims
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cobb
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:37 pm |
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1911 tainted |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:47 pm Posts: 3045
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Well, you know I am not going to answer. I just responded to your e-mail that you sent to me, with my own answer. I am curious as to what others think here also.
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Ramoel
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:41 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:52 pm Posts: 826 Location: MN
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Generally a slower but heavier bullet has greater penetration. That can be good or bad in a self defense situation. You don't want to shoot all the way through but you need to go deep enough to stop the attack.
This can be, and has been, the subject of many long discussions on various gun forums. As for myself, I prefer big, slow and heavy which for me means .45 ACP.
You'll always get a lot of different opinions on this subject. Bullet placement still means more than almost everything else.
_________________ Ron
NRA Life Member
USS Bristol DD857
_________________________
If life was fair, Robins couldn't eat worms...
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1911fan
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:36 pm |
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On time out |
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:18 pm Posts: 1689 Location: 35 W and Hiway 10
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I am fairly lucky, in my two carry guns, 185 +P and 230 +P hit to the same spot more or less, out to 25 yards. so for the longest time I have been shooting 185 +p JHP during the summer, and 230 +P for the winter. The heavier bullets have tested out as giving much deeper penetration even plugged with clothing or after having hit six layers of material. The 185's had shown to open quickly and efficiently without blowing thru people when they not wearing many outer layers and tend to stay with in the body.
_________________ molan labe
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jac714
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:06 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:40 am Posts: 1204 Location: Golden Valley, MN
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I carry a 230 gr +p that I have chronoed at about 820 fps out of a 4" 1911.
I am a fan of the slow heavy bullet.
_________________ MN DNR Certified FAS Instructor NRA Pistol, PPITH, and PPOTH Certified Instructor IFIA MCPPA Certified Instructor
"For those who fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." -Unknown
Honorably Discharged member of Uncle Sam's Underwater Canoe Club.
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westhope
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:23 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:11 am Posts: 572 Location: West of Hope, MN (S. Central MN)
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Based only upon my experience whitetail deer hunting with rifles, blackpowder rifles and shotgun slugs: big drops the deer quicker. Small & faster they run farther before they drop. Both are dead, it just seems with the bigger bullet the quicker they drop even if the small & fast has more muzzle energy.
Just my limited experience.
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cobb
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:41 pm |
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1911 tainted |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:47 pm Posts: 3045
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I know off topic. But deer that I have shot with bigger and slower bullets have a lot less meat damage than lighter and faster bullet, I guess call hydrostatic effect (maybe the correct term). The bullet weight that I shot them with had little difference in them stopping, hitting major bone structure did make a difference, but out of a major caliber rifle, that bullet, no matter the weight would still do the same thing. I am not trying to dispute others, so what am I saying? There are many thing to take into account when you are shooting to stop the attack. I think the theory of using a heavier bullet in the winter with winter clothing makes sense, that is one reason that I do not like specialty ammunition like frangible. Another major thing that is more important than bullet weight is caliber. If you are shooting a .25 or .32, there are a lot more things to take into consideration. But shooting a .40 or .45, you have less issues when it comes to bullet weight because both cartridges will push a light or heavy bullets fast enough to do damage.
So which is more important, the tissue damage or the bone structure damage, I think both a .40 and .45 will do both if bullet placement is where it needs to be.
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Andrew Rothman
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:42 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:24 am Posts: 6767 Location: Twin Cities
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mostlylawabidingcitizen
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:07 am |
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:54 am Posts: 1242
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Won't really matter all that much - which ever shoots in your gun better is the 'best' bullet for you!
interesting read http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
Apparently the best round - is the biggest (in frontal area) that you can shoot accurately as studies have proven that no one has ever died from being missed!
Note that it may help to tell the person that they have been shot... in hopes that they are predisposed to fall down when shot...
Mostly-
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meltedeyes
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:16 am |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:59 pm Posts: 292 Location: Coon Rapids
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Mac's rule! no wait, PC's Rule! but what about them rule...Windows rules! no, Linux RUles! damn, um, BSD, BeOS, Solaris, SCO, Xenix, Dos rules! Grrrrrr. Never mind they all suck. Anybody have an old VAX they don't want? Although that'll probably suck too. I think I've been in this industry to long. I can't even old the old standbye religious argument with myself. I suppose I could do vi versus emacs, but I've never used emacs...wait a second, perfect, if I've never used it I can bash it abd denigrate it all I want just like the anti-gun fundies do! Emacs sucks!
_________________ Insert witty comment here.
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meltedeyes
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:21 am |
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Senior Member |
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Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:59 pm Posts: 292 Location: Coon Rapids
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More on topic,
I use 230gr because it is what feels correct to me. I have both light and heavy ball for my Mosin-Nagant that I will be testing once it gets warmer to figure out which I prefer.
I think the biggest determining factor for bullet weight and speed is is it effective? does it do what needs to be done? If so, than that particular round is a win. They'll both stop a bad guy, why argue about which ones better, it's too subjective.
Personally I like the big and slow, but then as my pistol choices are a .45 or a .22 the decision has been made without me.
_________________ Insert witty comment here.
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mrokern
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:15 am |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:40 pm Posts: 2264 Location: Eden Prairie
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meltedeyes wrote: Mac's rule! no wait, PC's Rule! but what about them rule...Windows rules! no, Linux RUles! damn, um, BSD, BeOS, Solaris, SCO, Xenix, Dos rules! Grrrrrr. Never mind they all suck. Anybody have an old VAX they don't want? Although that'll probably suck too. I think I've been in this industry to long. I can't even old the old standbye religious argument with myself. I suppose I could do vi versus emacs, but I've never used emacs...wait a second, perfect, if I've never used it I can bash it abd denigrate it all I want just like the anti-gun fundies do! Emacs sucks!
Yup, you've been in the industry too long. I remember that string of long gibberish that was my VAX mail account...
On topic, I read reviews on ammo like anything else. My preferred caliber at the moment is 9mm, and my preferred ammo is Federal 124gr HST. I'm sure someone will come along shortly to tell me why I'm wrong.
-Mark
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mostlylawabidingcitizen
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:01 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:54 am Posts: 1242
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Dang - I was just looking at a report on those and a bunch of other but didn't save the link
The HST's had problems puncturing the 2nd water bottle - and that was the +P's! So it was determined that there was insufficient penatration as while it ran clean through the first water container it didn't puncture the second - all others punctured and came to rest in the second.
Wish I could find the dang link though. About 6 rounds were compared and each was examined in detail including Rangers, Hydroshocks, HSTs, and some others. WITH pictures!
Mostly-
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JDR
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:20 pm |
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Longtime Regular |
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:37 am Posts: 935 Location: Victoria
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mostlylawabidingcitizen wrote: Won't really matter all that much - which ever shoots in your gun better is the 'best' bullet for you! interesting read http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdfApparently the best round - is the biggest (in frontal area) that you can shoot accurately as studies have proven that no one has ever died from being missed! Note that it may help to tell the person that they have been shot... in hopes that they are predisposed to fall down when shot... Mostly-
Thanks. That WAS very interesting.
_________________ "To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason
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VikesFan
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:26 pm |
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Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:36 am Posts: 159 Location: Twin Cities
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Lighter and faster has less propensity to overpenetrate. People argue that 12ga buck will overpenetrate less in an HD situation than a 55gr .223 when the opposite is true.
I'm still of the opinion that bigger diameter (when expanded) is better than small, but given the same caliber, I would opt for the lighter smaller round. IE: 185gr instead of a 230gr in .45, 155 instead of 180 in .40, etc.
At the end of the day though, whatever round you control best that allows the fastest followups will beat terminal ballistics. 3x 9mm in COM beats 1 45 ACP in the arm every time.
ETA: That was a very enlightening link. Although the conclusion one might draw from it is that everyone should be shooting 230gr FMJs. Always enough penetration, and a minimum of .45" wound tract.
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