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 President Obama Backs Inter-American Arms Treaty 
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 Post subject: President Obama Backs Inter-American Arms Treaty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:14 pm 
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/16/AR2009041602694.html?hpid=topnews

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President Obama Backs Inter-American Arms Treaty

MEXICO CITY, April 16 -- President Obama will announce in a visit here today that he will push the U.S. Senate to ratify an inter-American arms trafficking treaty designed to curb the flow of guns and ammunition to drug cartels and other armed groups in the hemisphere.

Senior administration officials confirmed that he will make the announcement after meeting with Mexican President Felipe Calderón this afternoon. The meeting is the centerpiece of Obama's first visit to Mexico, whose government is engaged in a broad war against heavily armed drug cartels threatening the integrity of the state. ...

Obama's announcement on the treaty -- formally known as the Inter-American Convention Against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives and other Related Materials -- will mark an additional step.

Well that sounds innocuous enough, I mean who could be opposed to cracking down on illegal gun trafficking? As they say, though, the Devil is in the details. Keeping in mind that IANAL, by my reading of <a href=http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/oasarms.txt target=new>the treaty</a>:

Quote:
For the purposes of this Convention, the following definitions shall apply:

1. "Illicit manufacturing": the manufacture or assembly of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials: ...

b. without a license from a competent governmental authority of the State Party where the manufacture or assembly takes place; ...

4. "Ammunition": the complete round or its components, including cartridge cases, primers, propellant powder, bullets, or projectiles that are used in any firearm. ...

6. "Other related materials": any component, part, or replacement part of a firearm, or an accessory which can be attached to a firearm.

Section 1) b. would ban custom building of guns (including finishing 80% receivers), and combined with Section 4) would prohibit reloading or handloading of ammunition, and when you include Section 6) it seems quite possible that even upgrading existing firearms with new stocks, sights, triggers etc. will be prohibited without a gov't license.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:38 pm 
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I was watching the CNN coverage of it earlier today and thought . . . wow, that was an angle I didn't expect. Building AK's from flats has got to be gone too . .. add a little punitive taxing on the little guy and . .. . there it went.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:27 pm 
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And they wonder why words like "secession" and "revolution" are popping up more frequently in the mouths of Americans. Sneaky underhanded endruns around Constitutionally protected rights leave us with no choice but to believe there IS a conspiracy afoot to disarm the American citizen.

Things like this are treasonous and unAmerican, not pointing things like this out.

Obama should stay in Mexico, where his new constituency is from.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:33 pm 
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QuiChenKane wrote:
And they wonder why words like "secession" and "revolution" are popping up more frequently in the mouths of Americans. ...

As a <a href=http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/02/what-is-three-percenter.html target=new>three-percenter</a> I prefer the term 'Restoration' to Revolution. We don't want to overthrow the legitimate government and replace it with another, we want to remove the usurpers and restore a Constitutional government with limited enumerated powers.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:36 pm 
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I like you.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:40 pm 
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Do international treaties supersceed the Constitution?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:48 pm 
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I guess that depends on who you ask: the powers that be(for now) or the people.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:58 pm 
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bkrafft wrote:
QuiChenKane wrote:
And they wonder why words like "secession" and "revolution" are popping up more frequently in the mouths of Americans. ...

As a <a href=http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/02/what-is-three-percenter.html target=new>three-percenter</a> I prefer the term 'Restoration' to Revolution. We don't want to overthrow the legitimate government and replace it with another, we want to remove the usurpers and restore a Constitutional government with limited enumerated powers.


Well said.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:10 pm 
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QuiChenKane wrote:
I guess that depends on who you ask: the powers that be(for now) or the people.

If you look at Article VI of the constitution it seems to say that the the Constitution and any treaties are equal??? I would suppose that for a treaty to be made under the "authority of the US" would have to be constitutional in order to be valid.

Quote:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:45 pm 
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Yup, they found the loop hole. Don't even have to pass legislation just make a treaty & there ya have it. That my friends is an unacceptable abuse.

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Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a
lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become
a law unto himself; it invites anarchy .” Olmstead v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:42 am 
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Quote:
For the purposes of this Convention, the following definitions shall apply:

1. "Illicit manufacturing": the manufacture or assembly of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials: ...

b. without a license from a competent governmental authority of the State Party where the manufacture or assembly takes place; ...

4. "Ammunition": the complete round or its components, including cartridge cases, primers, propellant powder, bullets, or projectiles that are used in any firearm. ...

6. "Other related materials": any component, part, or replacement part of a firearm, or an accessory which can be attached to a firearm.


I can see where at first glance this would be alarming guys but these are only DEFINITIONS! Lets fight our battles informed and intelligently.The terms of the treaty do not require ANY country to ban anything, only for other countries to respect the others' laws.

What it does say is that gun manufacturers in other countries must mark firearms as to the date/ place of manufacture. Already done here.

It also state that participating countries must pass legislation prohibiting exporting firearms and ammunition to other participating countries where those are banned. Also, already done here. It is already illegal here to export guns to mexico because they are banned in mexico.

It goes further to say that participating countries will share information and responsibility in enforcement.

The Letter of Submittal states"

Quote:
The Convention will not require implementing legislation for the
United States. As further discussed below, the existing body of federal
laws in the United States is adequate to satisfy the Convention’s
provisions regarding requirements for legislation, and the
other provisions contained in the Convention are self-executing and
will not require new legislation.


Put your time and enery into fight the real issues guys, this isn't one.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:20 am 
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Fugitive, you are wrong.

How about this?

Quote:
2. States Parties shall adopt the necessary measures to ensure that all
firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials seized,
confiscated, or forfeited as the result of illicit manufacturing or trafficking
do not fall into the hands of private individuals or businesses through auction,
sale, or other disposal.


No more buying seized guns at auction. That would be new.

Quote:
States Parties, in an effort to eliminate loss or diversion, undertake to
adopt the necessary measures to ensure the security of firearms, ammunition,
explosives, and other related materials imported into, exported from, or in
transit through their respective territories.

There's registration of both guns and ammo.

Quote:
1. States Parties shall exchange among themselves, in conformity with their
respective domestic laws and applicable treaties, relevant information on
matters such as:

a. authorized producers, dealers, importers, exporters, and, whenever possible,
carriers of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials;



Cool. Now Mexico has our carry permit database.

I don't see any "letter of submittal," so it's hard to comment, but does it have the force of law that this treaty does?

I can't think of a single reason to lay down with the corrupt, victim-disarming government of Mexico, nor many of the South American countries, on gun rights issues.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:45 am 
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http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=105_cong_documents&docid=f:td049.pdf

There's your link to the treaty, directly from your *cough* friends. The Letter of Submittal is part of the treaty.


Quote:
2. States Parties shall adopt the necessary measures to ensure that all
firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials seized,
confiscated, or forfeited as the result of illicit manufacturing or trafficking
do not fall into the hands of private individuals or businesses through auction,
sale, or other disposal.


The federal government does not auction off arms or ammunition confiscated in violation of federal law. Not sure where you're getting that. This is requiring that other participating countries don't either. My guess is they don't already.

Quote:
States Parties, in an effort to eliminate loss or diversion, undertake to
adopt the necessary measures to ensure the security of firearms, ammunition,
explosives, and other related materials imported into, exported from, or in
transit through their respective territories


Again, not sure where you're getting registration here. I fairly certain you undertake measures to keep your secure too, such as putting them in a safe or keeping you vehicle locked if they're in there. They are trying to prevent loss or diversion, aka theft of firearms in transit.


Quote:
1. States Parties shall exchange among themselves, in conformity with their
respective domestic laws and applicable treaties, relevant information on
matters such as:

a. authorized producers, dealers, importers, exporters, and, whenever possible,
carriers of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials;


If you think you see anything here where mexico might have access to the carry permit database you are much more creative than I. Why on earth would mexico want that information, they can't do ANYTHING with it. Since producers, dealers, importers and exporters are already public information, I would have to assume you are looking at the word "carriers". In the shipping and transportation business, shippers are called carriers. So unless you're are a trucker that delivers firearms to mexico, you don't need to worry about this one.

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Last edited by Fugitive74 on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:48 am 
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Fugitive74 wrote:
<...> Clearer now? Or do I need to draw pictures?

Hey, no need to be a dick. I am glad you are here to voice your opinion and understandings of what this might mean. But to be honest with you, if you continue to act douchey for no apparent reason I am going to stop reading your posts, which I think will be bad for both of us because it is obvious you have some knowledge related to this topic.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:02 am 
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SultanOfBrunei wrote:
to be honest with you, if you continue to act douchey for no apparent reason

:lol:
That's funny stuff right there. I find myself thankful there is not yet an emoticon for that bodily function!


"Douchy". lol!
How does one act douchy?

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But it remains true that from time to time they collaborate on something that's both stupid and evil and call it bipartisanship. -Thomas E. Woods Jr.


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