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 My 1st Defensive Use Tonight, hopefully my last (Skyway) 
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 Post subject: My 1st Defensive Use Tonight, hopefully my last (Skyway)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:42 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:56 pm
Posts: 76
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Hi all,

I know that I am not an extremely established member (yet), but this forum and many of the people on it have been a source of support and wisdom on carrying for me. For this reason, I should thank you all for contributing to my preparedness tonight when a man attempted to rob/whatever-else-was-on-his-mind, my girlfriend and I.

We were walking through the skyway system in Minneapolis, near St. Olaf's (maybe I can zero in the location tomorrow). I was fairly aware of our surroundings, but we were also engaged in conversation. I had noticed the man in a blue jacket standing up ahead in the street-overpass, but he seemed to be talking on his cell phone. As we entered this particular overpass, he stepped towards the middle with his hand inside his jacket and loudly commanded, "Don't Move!" It is worth noting that this was the moment I realized that no one else was within sight and he had glass and a brick wall behind him.

At this point I quickly scraped aside my coat and sweater and acquired a firm grip on my handgun (IWB - 3 o'clock), as I said "What!?!" I doubt he could actually see the gun. While reaching for my gun, I thrust my weak arm out in a 'halt' sign. I don't know exactly how everything happened so quickly, but it was just as I practice.

He seemed very surprised at the resistance and quickly said, "Naw, it's cool, it's cool." This attitude change, his eyes, and his quick turn to run made it obvious that he knew exactly what I had my hand on and this was not his 'first time.'

He was almost out of the overpass by the time I was dialing 911 and he saw me dialing and shouted something to the effect of "don't do that" and actually turned to approach us again. He must have thought better of it, because as another man entered the overpass behind us he ran into the TCF tower and we never saw him again.

I related these events to the 911 dispatcher, mentioned that I was a Permit to Carry holder and had reached for, but not displayed, my weapon and that he seemed to have known what I reached for and so he fled. We gave a description, my girlfriend was much more able to recount the details of his appearance...I guess my brain was focused on other things. The dispatcher said someone was on the way and that I could stick around if I wanted. I thanked her and replied that I no longer felt threatened and that I would not be sticking around.

In mulling it over during dinner with the lovely lady, we are pretty sure that he had just been waiting for a victim(s) to be otherwise alone in the overpass with him. Bottom-line: I felt immediately threatened and had he not made his immediate withdrawal and deescalation, I am certain that I would have drawn. I am very thankful this encounter did not escalate, because it could have been much more life-changing. Hopefully the 'umbrella effect' can bring some good out of the attack.

So that's that. If you have any comments, criticism, suggestions, or questions, I would be happy to receive and answer them.

--Jonathan


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:02 am 
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Wow, not sure what all to tell you, you must be a little hyped up right now.... :shock:

Far from being a perfect critic, I say you missed a chance to annouce loudly you do not want to be hurt or harmed in any way and that they should leave you alone. The guy that entered the skyway short afterward may have been able to over hear the situation happening if it had happened to turn bad, I gotta believe in your defense this would've aided your case.

Overall sounds like you acted accordingly, good job noticing a bad situation and taking control.

I'll let the others chime in.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:34 am 
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I am not a nitpicker. You were accosted, you resisted,you maintained control of yourself, your date, and your weapon and the bad guy was scared enough to run away. THAT is a perfect gun use. It was the simple fact that he now knew you held the upper hand that caused him to flee. Calling it in, getting them (police and security) the information to look for on the security tapes is all by the book.

I say a RESOUNDING well done!!



We should not carry guns to use them, we should carry in the hope that just their presence will prevent the use of them. ( yeah I know, primitive cave man voice deep inside says KILL the MF!!!!! but that brings so many other problems, not just legal, that we really wish to avoid it)


This is not to say, that when needed, use is somehow off limits to us. We would just prefer NOT to have it go that far.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 2:54 am
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Location: West Central MN
You couldn't have done that without your gun.

You were assaulted. I'm thinking the guys are on videotape somewhere close since it was downtown.

Did you go the police?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:34 am 
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1911fan wrote:
I am not a nitpicker. You were accosted, you resisted,you maintained control of yourself, your date, and your weapon and the bad guy was scared enough to run away. THAT is a perfect gun use. It was the simple fact that he now knew you held the upper hand that caused him to flee. Calling it in, getting them (police and security) the information to look for on the security tapes is all by the book.

I say a RESOUNDING well done!!


WELL DONE IS RIGHT

You did perfect decision making IMHO and got the point across to the perp. Then did the most important thing and raced to 911 to call the perp in.

Well done again and I know exactly where your talking about. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:49 am 
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Great Job! Thanks for sharing the incident. Again, great job and perfect result.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:14 am 
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1911fan wrote:
I am not a nitpicker. You were accosted, you resisted,you maintained control of yourself, your date, and your weapon and the bad guy was scared enough to run away. THAT is a perfect gun use. It was the simple fact that he now knew you held the upper hand that caused him to flee. Calling it in, getting them (police and security) the information to look for on the security tapes is all by the book.

I say a RESOUNDING well done!!



We should not carry guns to use them, we should carry in the hope that just their presence will prevent the use of them. ( yeah I know, primitive cave man voice deep inside says KILL the MF!!!!! but that brings so many other problems, not just legal, that we really wish to avoid it)


This is not to say, that when needed, use is somehow off limits to us. We would just prefer NOT to have it go that far.


+ about a million. That is the most successful DGU- one where the gun never clears leather...

Good job!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:53 am 
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Well, you asked for my criticism, and here it is:

You appear to have handled it perfectly. If there's anything you should have done better, even in retrospect, I don't know what it is. Memorizing his details better? Not at the cost of focusing on the more important stuff.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:14 am 
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Good job! I have always wondered how I would react to a threatining situation. I hope I would do as well of a job as you have. The question I have would be this. If you actually displayed your weapon how would have this changed the scenario? As many here carry J frame revolvers often in pocket holsters it would seem the only way to make a perp aware that you are actually armed is to draw and point the weapon.
Particularly in summer dress when you are not wearing a jacket and you have to reach in your pants or short pocket.
The type of movement you made to sweep your jacket and sweater aside and reach to your hip is classic "I am armed language" that all can understand.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:20 am 
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MnMonte wrote:
Good job! I have always wondered how I would react to a threatining situation. I hope I would do as well of a job as you have. The question I have would be this. If you actually displayed your weapon how would have this changed the scenario? As many here carry J frame revolvers often in pocket holsters it would seem the only way to make a perp aware that you are actually armed is to draw and point the weapon.

There's a better way to do that; it'll be as effective in many (most?) cases, and much less likely to get you talked about:

    Take what they call a "bladed stance" -- turn your weak side toward the person you're concerned about, and your strong side away.
    Shove your strong hand into your pocket, and take a grip on the gun.
    Extend your weak arm, full out, palm up, and say, in a not friendly manner, "Can I help you?" If they don't stop walking toward you, tell them to. If they continue . . .

    . . . then you've got some interesting decisions to make.


(I've got to finish off the presentation for the self-defense class; this is in it, but I've been kind of busy.)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:23 am 
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Jonathan,
Congratulations on keeping control of yourself and doing what you've obviously practiced!

I always wonder if I'll stay as collected if something similar happens to me. This is a great reminder for all of us to keep rehearsing some theoretical scenarios, if even only in our minds.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:28 am 
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Well done. That's the best -- and most common -- kind of DGU.

My nitpick is this: I would have waited for the police, to ensure that they gave the case sufficient attention. If you don't wait around, they may not bother looking at the tape, or looking out for the guy, and he may get to continue his trade with less-prepared would-be victims.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:38 am
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joelr wrote:
MnMonte wrote:
Good job! I have always wondered how I would react to a threatining situation. I hope I would do as well of a job as you have. The question I have would be this. If you actually displayed your weapon how would have this changed the scenario? As many here carry J frame revolvers often in pocket holsters it would seem the only way to make a perp aware that you are actually armed is to draw and point the weapon.

There's a better way to do that; it'll be as effective in many (most?) cases, and much less likely to get you talked about:

    Take what they call a "bladed stance" -- turn your weak side toward the person you're concerned about, and your strong side away.
    Shove your strong hand into your pocket, and take a grip on the gun.
    Extend your weak arm, full out, palm up, and say, in a not friendly manner, "Can I help you?" If they don't stop walking toward you, tell them to. If they continue . . .

    . . . then you've got some interesting decisions to make.

(I've got to finish off the presentation for the self-defense class; this is in it, but I've been kind of busy.)

Thanks Joel for the good advice. It is reasonable to assume given the circumstances as described by ruffelo that the situation could have easily escalted to displaying and perhaps even discharge of his weapon. Thankfully it did not and all went home safely.
To raise another question where would "duty to retreat" fit into this sceanario?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:50 am 
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Awkwardly, but that's what the lawyers are for. Me, I'm old, out of shape, and can't run very far or fast.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:02 am 
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Definitely a scary incident....but I think you handled it well. Nice job!

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